My E85 as a Octane Booster Experiment
05-21-2010, 10:29 AM
#21
From other sites as well,
Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.
On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?
2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.
If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.
3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.
One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.
4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.
Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.
5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.
Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.
The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.
Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.
Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.
6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.
This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.
7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.
E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.
E85 ETHANOL MYTHS
1. E85 Ethanol is corrosiveYes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.
On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?
2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.
If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.
3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.
One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.
4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.
Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.
5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.
Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.
The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.
Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.
Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.
6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.
This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.
7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.
E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.
05-21-2010, 10:45 AM
#23
I hear ya. Im just going off the fact that ethanol is a high octane fuel. At the same time Im not sure what calculations they use for pump gas sales, some even differ by state. I just see it as me adding 25% of pure ethanol into my tank.
05-21-2010, 01:22 PM
#24
So I wanted to data log and my lap top took a **** hmmm. conspiracy theory lol Ok the gist I did the same thing C5 did 4.5 gallons of e85 and 10.8 of 91. When the engine finally got a good mix the idle smoothed out, acceleration was very smooth and at stop lights it was some what smoother. The bad thing about 91 and out west is that some times you will get a bad batch of 91 octane and you can feel it right away this really did make a difference. here is the pull i did about 90% throttle.enjoy guys. Oh the A/C was on, windows closed, the oil temp got up to 232 after the pull, coolant 201, and tranny 163 with a temperature of 93* outside.
Now the one thing i would NOT suggest is tuning a nitrous shot to this...Why again and this has to do more here in the western states. Batches of bad 91 octane are more prevalent than not. The only fuel that I know for a fact that i have used consistently with no issues is Chevron, Shell I have run into a few bad batches. With that said, if you hit a bad batch of 91 and do this mix and run your Nitrous through you could find yourself in real trouble really fats. Even considering a wet shot. Now i am no expert in N2O application what i know has been learned through what i am running now, but once you are tuned the tune can either save or kill your engine depending on how safe you are. This is better in my opinion to raise your standard octane rating for a good DD with higher compression or a high hp N/A car that you wish to run smoother. Over all Stick with a Torco/fule mix, 110, or C16 for your N2O shot wet or dry shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HkipQyZzHw
Now the one thing i would NOT suggest is tuning a nitrous shot to this...Why again and this has to do more here in the western states. Batches of bad 91 octane are more prevalent than not. The only fuel that I know for a fact that i have used consistently with no issues is Chevron, Shell I have run into a few bad batches. With that said, if you hit a bad batch of 91 and do this mix and run your Nitrous through you could find yourself in real trouble really fats. Even considering a wet shot. Now i am no expert in N2O application what i know has been learned through what i am running now, but once you are tuned the tune can either save or kill your engine depending on how safe you are. This is better in my opinion to raise your standard octane rating for a good DD with higher compression or a high hp N/A car that you wish to run smoother. Over all Stick with a Torco/fule mix, 110, or C16 for your N2O shot wet or dry shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HkipQyZzHw
Last edited by 02*C5; 05-21-2010 at 06:28 PM.
05-21-2010, 06:33 PM
#26
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A guy i know had a LT1 383 and when he was running 91 octane his timing was a 0* advanced and when he mixed it with e85 it was back up to normal, 30-40*. It works but id only use it only when you need to it does burn pretty hot.
05-21-2010, 08:40 PM
#27
Thats why Im sticking to 30%, if feel its a pretty safe level. Some states might start using up to 20% ethanol in pump gas which will only be 5% less than me! Lol. Thing is theyll mix it with cheaper gas to stay at 87-91 octane. The use of ethanol makes it cheaper for them to produce higher octane fuels by mixing. They will claim better gas mileage because it will lean out the burn (which they wont tell consumers) but I wonder how many untuned vehicles will suffer damage.
Last edited by C5natie; 05-21-2010 at 08:58 PM.
05-21-2010, 08:45 PM
#28
Thats what fuels like Shell with "Nitrogen" additive is. They ad oxidizers that allow a leaner burn so you get better gas mileage and they do clean out your combustion chambers. Thing is youll loose some power and run too lean. Someone should do a afr test with different gasolines. Thing is they sell their products for weak factory vehicles, us modded guys will get screwed...especially in CA.
05-21-2010, 08:50 PM
#29
Another reason to look into e85;
Basically 1) you can only buy race fuel if you prove its for racing, like if youre a NHRA or PSCA member, 2) you must prove your "race car" isnt street legal. If its registered to be hwy driven its not a race car, 3) vendors of fuel must log all sales.
(this is an actual advisory letter from CARB)
http://www.killcarb.org/2010020402-racingfuel.html
Basically 1) you can only buy race fuel if you prove its for racing, like if youre a NHRA or PSCA member, 2) you must prove your "race car" isnt street legal. If its registered to be hwy driven its not a race car, 3) vendors of fuel must log all sales.
(this is an actual advisory letter from CARB)
http://www.killcarb.org/2010020402-racingfuel.html
05-22-2010, 08:40 AM
#30
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Yes, you have to find that sweet spot depending on your ethanol percentage. Im still playing with mine but mid 12s afr at wot seems to be good for 30% e85, which is actually about 25% pure ethanol in my tank. Like I said, theres no real guide lines for percentages of e85 so you just have to do some math and use the wideband to find where the right afr you want is.
ethanol % AFR
0 14.681005
6.25 14.321680
12.50 13.979524
18.75 13.607975
25.00 13.255665
31.25 12.921137
37.50 12.564418
43.75 12.190477
50.00 11.838152
56.25 11.473391
62.50 11.130436
68.75 10.778948
75.00 10.422393
81.25 10.063883
87.50 9.706162
93.75 9.351599
100.00 9.002199
05-23-2010, 12:45 PM
#32
You can find a flex fuel bin file and it will have an ethanol blend table that will have the data your looking for.
ethanol % AFR
0 14.681005
6.25 14.321680
12.50 13.979524
18.75 13.607975
25.00 13.255665
31.25 12.921137
37.50 12.564418
43.75 12.190477
50.00 11.838152
56.25 11.473391
62.50 11.130436
68.75 10.778948
75.00 10.422393
81.25 10.063883
87.50 9.706162
93.75 9.351599
100.00 9.002199
ethanol % AFR
0 14.681005
6.25 14.321680
12.50 13.979524
18.75 13.607975
25.00 13.255665
31.25 12.921137
37.50 12.564418
43.75 12.190477
50.00 11.838152
56.25 11.473391
62.50 11.130436
68.75 10.778948
75.00 10.422393
81.25 10.063883
87.50 9.706162
93.75 9.351599
100.00 9.002199
05-23-2010, 07:28 PM
#34
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The values in the table I posted are stoich values nothing more nothing less. They will be the same values as a wide band would show during closed loop fueling.
On a side note, I run mine on the lean side anyway for the very same reason, to save fuel.
I can run as lean as 11:1.
At 11.5:1 I get a little bucking while cruising around.
I run it at 8.7:1 for wot.
My old motor ran at 11.2:1 compression with 11#'s of boost.
My new motor runs at 13:1 compression and 8#'s of boost so far.
I'm still breaking it in, it will see full boost once I'm done.
On a side note, I run mine on the lean side anyway for the very same reason, to save fuel.
I can run as lean as 11:1.
At 11.5:1 I get a little bucking while cruising around.
I run it at 8.7:1 for wot.
My old motor ran at 11.2:1 compression with 11#'s of boost.
My new motor runs at 13:1 compression and 8#'s of boost so far.
I'm still breaking it in, it will see full boost once I'm done.
05-24-2010, 07:59 AM
#35
The values in the table I posted are stoich values nothing more nothing less. They will be the same values as a wide band would show during closed loop fueling.
On a side note, I run mine on the lean side anyway for the very same reason, to save fuel.
I can run as lean as 11:1.
At 11.5:1 I get a little bucking while cruising around.
I run it at 8.7:1 for wot.
My old motor ran at 11.2:1 compression with 11#'s of boost.
My new motor runs at 13:1 compression and 8#'s of boost so far.
I'm still breaking it in, it will see full boost once I'm done.
On a side note, I run mine on the lean side anyway for the very same reason, to save fuel.
I can run as lean as 11:1.
At 11.5:1 I get a little bucking while cruising around.
I run it at 8.7:1 for wot.
My old motor ran at 11.2:1 compression with 11#'s of boost.
My new motor runs at 13:1 compression and 8#'s of boost so far.
I'm still breaking it in, it will see full boost once I'm done.
05-24-2010, 09:08 AM
#36
As it has been done many times before you can spike your octane fairly easily with Toluene or Xylene from any local store.
Here is a calculator... 114/117 octane doesn't take much!
http://www.serioussolutions.com/evo/octcalc.htm
Here is a calculator... 114/117 octane doesn't take much!
http://www.serioussolutions.com/evo/octcalc.htm
05-24-2010, 10:45 AM
#37
As it has been done many times before you can spike your octane fairly easily with Toluene or Xylene from any local store.
Here is a calculator... 114/117 octane doesn't take much!
http://www.serioussolutions.com/evo/octcalc.htm
Here is a calculator... 114/117 octane doesn't take much!
http://www.serioussolutions.com/evo/octcalc.htm
05-24-2010, 12:38 PM
#38
Yeah Ive been really interested in more info for the e85 stuff, esp out here because we have stations all over MI selling this stuff along with 93 right next to it so being to take advantage of that would be nice and enjoy better performance all around sounds good. Thanks for the info c5natie and those others who have contributed. Im sure there are more and more people out there each day experimenting with this stuff, we just have to find them.. 
05-24-2010, 03:30 PM
#40
Looks like there also a forum dedicated to e85 in performance applications, especially among GM vehicles. Looks like a good place for info.
http://www.e85performance.net/forums/
BTW, Ive been driving with my data logger on the car and even in warm weather I jump on it and I see 0.00 knock and all maf map and o2 values were normal. Nice. All looks good so far but I had to drop off the car at the shop this weekend for some repairs to the floor of the vehicle along with a few extras. Looks like I might wait a bit for track time but I will deffinately hit the track as soon as I get the car out. Old times at the 1/8 track were 7.4 @ 94.4mph so we'll how she does with e85. Shouldnt be a huge difference but I want to see how the car reacts to the extra timing I put in. Should see a bit more torque as well.
http://www.e85performance.net/forums/
BTW, Ive been driving with my data logger on the car and even in warm weather I jump on it and I see 0.00 knock and all maf map and o2 values were normal. Nice. All looks good so far but I had to drop off the car at the shop this weekend for some repairs to the floor of the vehicle along with a few extras. Looks like I might wait a bit for track time but I will deffinately hit the track as soon as I get the car out. Old times at the 1/8 track were 7.4 @ 94.4mph so we'll how she does with e85. Shouldnt be a huge difference but I want to see how the car reacts to the extra timing I put in. Should see a bit more torque as well.